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	<title>Comments on: Reintroducing &quot;engineering&quot; to software.</title>
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	<link>http://www.agilecmmi.com/index.php/2009/05/reintroducing-engineering-to-software/</link>
	<description>A starting point for a discussion on marrying Agile methods and CMMI.</description>
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		<title>By: Christian</title>
		<link>http://www.agilecmmi.com/index.php/2009/05/reintroducing-engineering-to-software/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 10:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi John,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I was reading the post and just thought:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;agree,&lt;br /&gt;agree,&lt;br /&gt;agree ...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Struguling myself explaining customers the need for sound engineering practices on one side and being agile on the other side.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think the reason why companies build a bureaucracy around development and the reason why some agile shops toss out some engineering stuff is the same - missing knowledge of and how to apply engineering practice in software development.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is it missing education or just slopy practice? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Just a thought: There is an education difference between engineers and workers in construction and car manufacturing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Applying tight engineering practices is sometimes seen as a constraint to the creativity of the software developer.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That&#039;s been just some thoughts not a solution. Hope for feedback. I am still thinking about the topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John,</p>
<p>I was reading the post and just thought:</p>
<p>agree,<br />agree,<br />agree &#8230;</p>
<p>Struguling myself explaining customers the need for sound engineering practices on one side and being agile on the other side.</p>
<p>I think the reason why companies build a bureaucracy around development and the reason why some agile shops toss out some engineering stuff is the same &#8211; missing knowledge of and how to apply engineering practice in software development.</p>
<p>Is it missing education or just slopy practice? </p>
<p>Just a thought: There is an education difference between engineers and workers in construction and car manufacturing.</p>
<p>Applying tight engineering practices is sometimes seen as a constraint to the creativity of the software developer.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s been just some thoughts not a solution. Hope for feedback. I am still thinking about the topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Hillel</title>
		<link>http://www.agilecmmi.com/index.php/2009/05/reintroducing-engineering-to-software/comment-page-1/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>Hillel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 02:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi John,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The distinction I&#039;m making is between &lt;i&gt;programming&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;development&lt;/i&gt;.  I&#039;m saying that software development &lt;b&gt;without&lt;/b&gt; &lt;i&gt;engineering&lt;/i&gt; is just programming.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, if programming is like assembly, development is like engineering.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What you describe when you note, &quot;...the sort of uncertainty, discovery, and adaptability...&quot; is found when you are actually performing &lt;i&gt;development&lt;/i&gt;.  That is, programming + engineering.  (In the other order, most likely.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So, we&#039;re in agreement, that if we eliminate engineering wholesale, we end up short-changing development -- and often expect non-engineering-types to somehow think and analyze like engineers.  In the software world, not every programmer can also be a good engineer. (Duh.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&#039;m reminded of a line from the Agile &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.agilemanifesto.org/principles.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;principles&lt;/a&gt;, found behind the &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.agilemanifesto.org/&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;manifesto&lt;/a&gt;:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;Continuous attention to technical excellence and good design enhances agility.&lt;/i&gt;Which, to me, acknowledges the importance of engineering -- which so many organizations, as you note, try to toss out the window when applying agile methods.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You can certainly help.  One of many ways, as a practitioner, is by keeping an eye out for examples of agile practices being enhanced, enabled, and/or facilitated by the application and/or existence of architecture and design as a precursor to much (but not necessarily all) of the agile-oriented &quot;programming&quot; steps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John,</p>
<p>The distinction I&#8217;m making is between <i>programming</i> and <i>development</i>.  I&#8217;m saying that software development <b>without</b> <i>engineering</i> is just programming.</p>
<p>So, if programming is like assembly, development is like engineering.</p>
<p>What you describe when you note, &#8220;&#8230;the sort of uncertainty, discovery, and adaptability&#8230;&#8221; is found when you are actually performing <i>development</i>.  That is, programming + engineering.  (In the other order, most likely.)</p>
<p>So, we&#8217;re in agreement, that if we eliminate engineering wholesale, we end up short-changing development &#8212; and often expect non-engineering-types to somehow think and analyze like engineers.  In the software world, not every programmer can also be a good engineer. (Duh.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m reminded of a line from the Agile <a HREF="http://www.agilemanifesto.org/principles.html" REL="nofollow" rel="nofollow">principles</a>, found behind the <a HREF="http://www.agilemanifesto.org/" REL="nofollow" rel="nofollow">manifesto</a>:<br /><i>Continuous attention to technical excellence and good design enhances agility.</i>Which, to me, acknowledges the importance of engineering &#8212; which so many organizations, as you note, try to toss out the window when applying agile methods.</p>
<p>You can certainly help.  One of many ways, as a practitioner, is by keeping an eye out for examples of agile practices being enhanced, enabled, and/or facilitated by the application and/or existence of architecture and design as a precursor to much (but not necessarily all) of the agile-oriented &#8220;programming&#8221; steps.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.agilecmmi.com/index.php/2009/05/reintroducing-engineering-to-software/comment-page-1/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 02:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agilecmmi.com/index.php/2009/05/reintroducing-engineering-to-software/#comment-37</guid>
		<description>Hillel,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think you&#039;ve hit right at the spot where large organizations like the big DoD contractors run into problems using agile methods. They have trouble finding the sweet spot between over-heavy process and tossing engineering out the window. The successful teams on agile, I think, are the ones who can think critically about this and make the appropriate decisions about when analysis is needed and when overanalysis is value-destroying.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I think you&#039;re missing in this essay, though, is this. You make a point that &lt;i&gt;programming&lt;/i&gt; is like assembly. I don&#039;t find the analogy as apt as you do, because construction assembly (to my knowledge) doesn&#039;t involve nearly the sort of uncertainty, discovery, and adaptability that we find at all levels of software development, from the method-and-line level on up. I can&#039;t think of a construction assembly job in the modern day that reminds me at all of the process of test-driven development. Perhaps a better analogy would be &lt;i&gt;craftsmanship&lt;/i&gt;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I found myself missing the other half of the analogy - if programming is like assembly, what&#039;s engineering?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Let me know if I can help you out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;- John Stoneham</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hillel,</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;ve hit right at the spot where large organizations like the big DoD contractors run into problems using agile methods. They have trouble finding the sweet spot between over-heavy process and tossing engineering out the window. The successful teams on agile, I think, are the ones who can think critically about this and make the appropriate decisions about when analysis is needed and when overanalysis is value-destroying.</p>
<p>What I think you&#8217;re missing in this essay, though, is this. You make a point that <i>programming</i> is like assembly. I don&#8217;t find the analogy as apt as you do, because construction assembly (to my knowledge) doesn&#8217;t involve nearly the sort of uncertainty, discovery, and adaptability that we find at all levels of software development, from the method-and-line level on up. I can&#8217;t think of a construction assembly job in the modern day that reminds me at all of the process of test-driven development. Perhaps a better analogy would be <i>craftsmanship</i>?</p>
<p>I found myself missing the other half of the analogy &#8211; if programming is like assembly, what&#8217;s engineering?</p>
<p>Let me know if I can help you out.</p>
<p>- John Stoneham</p>
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